From VM Sat Jun 30 11:29:01 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] [nil "Saturday" "30" "June" "2001" "00:21:42" "+0200" "PMDF e-Mail Interconnect" "postmaster@yogi.urz.unibas.ch" nil "147" "Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: <python-list-admin@python.org> Delivered-To: barry@wooz.org Received: from digicool.com (unknown [63.100.190.15]) by mail.wooz.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2852FD36EC for <barry@wooz.org>; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 18:21:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from <python-list-admin@python.org> by digicool.com (CommuniGate Pro RULES 3.4) with RULES id 2122693; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 18:23:52 -0400 Received: from ns2.digicool.com ([63.100.190.2] verified) by digicool.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4) with ESMTP id 2122692 for barry@mail.digicool.com; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 18:23:52 -0400 Received: from mail.python.org (mail.python.org [63.102.49.29]) by ns2.digicool.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA15102 for <barry@digicool.com>; 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charset=us-ascii Content-language: EN-US This report relates to a message you sent with the following header fields: Message-id: <Pine.LNX.4.31.0106300001530.2750-100000@athlon.de> Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 00:18:49 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Geckeler <uioziaremwpl@spammotel.com> To: Python <python-list@python.org> Subject: Re: Augmented Assignement (was: Re: PEP scepticism) Your message cannot be delivered to the following recipients: Recipient address: HAASM@yogi.urz.unibas.ch Original address: max.haas@unibas.ch %MAIL-E-OPENOUT, error opening !AS as output -RMS-E-CRE, ACP file create failed -SYSTEM-F-EXDISKQUOTA, disk quota exceeded --Boundary_(ID_MUSA353qRe9PeqtdeP14tg) Content-type: message/DELIVERY-STATUS Original-envelope-id: 0GFP00202Q2DR3@mailhub.unibas.ch Reporting-MTA: dns;yogi.urz.unibas.ch Action: failed Status: 5.0.0 Original-recipient: rfc822;max.haas@unibas.ch Final-recipient: rfc822;HAASM@yogi.urz.unibas.ch --Boundary_(ID_MUSA353qRe9PeqtdeP14tg) Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Return-path: python-list-admin@python.org Received: from yogi.urz.unibas.ch by yogi.urz.unibas.ch (PMDF V5.2-29 #33343) id <01K5CWRINUF48X46F4@yogi.urz.unibas.ch> (original mail from python-list-admin@python.org); Sat, 30 Jun 2001 00:21:42 +0200 Received: from maser.urz.unibas.ch ([131.152.1.5]) by yogi.urz.unibas.ch (PMDF V5.2-29 #33343) with ESMTP id <01K5CWRGK0V68X4CRC@yogi.urz.unibas.ch> for HAASM@yogi.urz.unibas.ch (ORCPT rfc822;max.haas@unibas.ch); Sat, 30 Jun 2001 00:21:38 +0200 Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON.mailhub.unibas.ch by mailhub.unibas.ch (PMDF V6.0-24 #41480) id <0GFP00201Q2DR3@mailhub.unibas.ch> for HAASM@yogi.urz.unibas.ch (ORCPT max.haas@unibas.ch); Sat, 30 Jun 2001 00:20:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.python.org (mail.python.org [63.102.49.29]) by mailhub.unibas.ch (PMDF V6.0-24 #41480) with ESMTP id <0GFP00BEAQ2C5Y@mailhub.unibas.ch> for max.haas@unibas.ch; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 00:20:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=mail.python.org) by mail.python.org with esmtp (Exim 3.21 #1) id 15G6bK-0006HW-00; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 18:18:58 -0400 Received: from [134.2.34.92] (helo=nemesis.jura.uni-tuebingen.de ident=qmailr) by mail.python.org with smtp (Exim 3.21 #1) id 15G6Zp-0006Ee-00 for python-list@python.org; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 18:17:25 -0400 Received: (qmail 31643 invoked from network); Fri, 29 Jun 2001 22:17:24 +0000 Received: from justitia.jura.uni-tuebingen.de (mail@134.2.34.12) by nemesis.jura.uni-tuebingen.de with SMTP; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 22:17:24 +0000 Received: from s-gec3 by justitia.jura.uni-tuebingen.de with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 15G6Zo-0002Zx-00 for <python-list@python.org>; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 00:17:24 +0200 Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 00:18:49 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Geckeler <uioziaremwpl@spammotel.com> Subject: Re: Augmented Assignement (was: Re: PEP scepticism) In-reply-to: <ubsn7hte7.fsf@ctwd0143.fitlinxx.com> Sender: python-list-admin@python.org To: Python <python-list@python.org> Errors-to: python-list-admin@python.org Message-id: <Pine.LNX.4.31.0106300001530.2750-100000@athlon.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.5 (101270) List-Post: <mailto:python-list@python.org> List-Subscribe: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list>, <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=subscribe> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list>, <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/> List-Help: <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=help> List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language <python-list.python.org> On 29 Jun 2001, David Bolen wrote: > Carsten Geckeler <uioziaremwpl@spammotel.com> writes: > > > The problem which some people have with augmented assignment is not that > > they exist, but that they do not work as they expect (at least from the > > POV of some readers). I expect that > > ident op= expr > > works like > > ident = ident op expr > > > > At least that's what I'd have expectd comming from other programming > > languages. > > Of course, one interesting point is that while you may think the above > if coming from, say, C, what "ident = ident op expr" means in C is not > what "ident = ident op expr" means in Python. Yes, that's completely true. I can accept, that Python work differently in many cases. Actually I love Python's object stuff. That's something more natural that in many other languages. And I can accept, that objects (which are bound to different variable names) can be changed (like with l.extend). The point is not that Python differs from C (or other languages), but that the two statements above work differently. I can accept that, of course (well I have to, I thing ;) ). But, when I write the following three statements, l = l + [3, 4] l += [3, 4] l.extend([3,4]) it seems more logical to me, that the first two do the same than the last two. I know, of course, that the last two do the same. But anyway, the first two just _look_ more the same. > In C it has the result of changing data (in either case) that is > stored in a named location ident, in Python the long form just rebinds > the reference ident to a new object and doesn't touch the original > object. The short form can actually get closer to the C idiom if the > object is mutable. > > So I wonder if some of the confusion is people familiar with other > language's augmented assignment trying to extrapolate that into Python > and then running into the pre-existing differences in assignment > versus binding? No, that's at least no problem for me (see above). Cheers, Carsten -- Carsten Geckeler -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list --Boundary_(ID_MUSA353qRe9PeqtdeP14tg)--